I don't know ph personally at all, but ph also has these boxes listed on
letterboxing.org, which has me wondering what happens then between the two
listings. They're going to be "owned" by one placer on letterboxing.org and
the same boxes will be "owned" by someone else on atlasquest.com? If so,
what happens if the original placer decides they want to reclaim their
property down the line? Or is the adopter expected to make an entirely new
box using their own materials, their own stamp, their own logbook, etc and
they're just "adopting" the placement site and the clues?

And how is it going to work when, as in ph's case, clicking the clues on
atlasquest just takes a person to the clues on lb.org?

Or are the two sites cooperating so that the "ownership" will then change on
both sites? Because if the clues are actually on lb.org, how is someone
*else* going to be able to get in to change those clues?

Just wondering.

And in the case of Vinland Ship, I'm not totally convinced, given the
placer's name of Arcane Mandala, that the slip in compass direction wasn't
intentional in some way.

~~ Mosey ~~

-----Original Message-----
From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Diana Newton Wood, MD
Sent: Sunday, July 02, 2006 12:21 PM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [LbNA] pH-Cross post




Hi,

I was wondering if anyone has heard from pH, or knows how to get in
touch with him.
All his boxes are up for adoption on Atlasquest as he hasn't posted in a
year.
There is one particular box, Vinland Ship, that I would be interested in
adopting. One of the compass points is missing a number, which means
that it is very hard to find.
(I found it accidentally on my way out) I would like to repost the
correct clues, but I don't want to swipe anyone's box who is just
taking a breather.

Thanks!

Diana
DEF Dale End Farm

>
>

>
>




Yahoo! Groups Links

i don't know what the ethical question to this is, i only know what i would
and do in the case of a missing planter.

first i make every effort to contact the placer. if the box is in the
basement then i adopt it. if it is not in the basement, but is listed on
lbna, atlas quest, or any other personal site i do not adopt it. rather i
foster care" it. check on it when i check on my own, replace what is needed
etc.

i would be very hesitant to adopt a box that has an owner, whether or not
that owner is available or not. perhaps atlas quest is just not the persons
cup of tea and they have stopped using it, perhaps they don't have a
computer anymore, or perhaps they just don't care. what ever the case it is
their box until they themselves let go of it.

in my own opinion i would rather see the boxes get deleted from atlas quest
before i saw them go up for adoption.

smile
uneksia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

xxxx wrote:

>I don't know ph personally at all, but ph also has these boxes listed on
>letterboxing.org, which has me wondering what happens then between the two
>listings. They're going to be "owned" by one placer on letterboxing.org and
>the same boxes will be "owned" by someone else on atlasquest.com? If so,
>what happens if the original placer decides they want to reclaim their
>property down the line? Or is the adopter expected to make an entirely new
>box using their own materials, their own stamp, their own logbook, etc and
>they're just "adopting" the placement site and the clues?
>
>And how is it going to work when, as in ph's case, clicking the clues on
>atlasquest just takes a person to the clues on lb.org?
>
>Or are the two sites cooperating so that the "ownership" will then change on
>both sites? Because if the clues are actually on lb.org, how is someone
>*else* going to be able to get in to change those clues?
>
>Just wondering.
>
>And in the case of Vinland Ship, I'm not totally convinced, given the
>placer's name of Arcane Mandala, that the slip in compass direction wasn't
>intentional in some way.
>
>~~ Mosey ~~
>
>
>
I think that the boxes on AQ are put up for adoption if the user hasn't
logged in in a year. Just like you say, though, I am hesitant to adopt a
box without speaking to the person whose box it is, or at least
ascertaining that they are no longer interested in the box in the way
that is normally done. (I don't know how that would be actually, but
presumably since adoptions occur there must be some method)
I don't know exactly what Arcane Mandala is supposed to mean, but at
least one person commented about the compass bearings being one number
short. Another mysterious boxer (Camera Obscura) commented that pH
needed to get a new compass!
Anyway, I thought I would inquire to find out if anyone knows about him.
I do think it is in the interest of the hobby to maintain the boxes if
possible. I know that I am disappointed when a box is gone, and it's not
noted etc.

Thanks
Diana

Either way would be good (although I liked this box!)
I would not adopt a box on one site only, I agree.
I have also heard that this person hasn't logged into letterboxing.org
for a while either.
How does a box get in the basement?
Where is the basement?

Diana

uneksia wrote:

>i don't know what the ethical question to this is, i only know what i would
>and do in the case of a missing planter.
>
>first i make every effort to contact the placer. if the box is in the
>basement then i adopt it. if it is not in the basement, but is listed on
>lbna, atlas quest, or any other personal site i do not adopt it. rather i
>foster care" it. check on it when i check on my own, replace what is needed
>etc.
>
>i would be very hesitant to adopt a box that has an owner, whether or not
>that owner is available or not. perhaps atlas quest is just not the persons
>cup of tea and they have stopped using it, perhaps they don't have a
>computer anymore, or perhaps they just don't care. what ever the case it is
>their box until they themselves let go of it.
>
>in my own opinion i would rather see the boxes get deleted from atlas quest
>before i saw them go up for adoption.
>
>smile
>uneksia
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

A few comments and clarifications about adopted boxes on Atlas Quest....

> in my own opinion i would rather see the boxes get deleted from
> atlas quest before i saw them go up for adoption.

I did consider this idea, but finally abandoned it because without
clues, any boxes still left out there would essentially become trash
with nobody to look for them or maintain them. If a box has been
abadoned, someone else can take care of it, retire it, or do what they
want, but the one thing I don't want to happen to it is to have it
stay out in the wild and abandoned.

> I am hesitant to adopt a box without speaking to the person whose
> box it is, or at least ascertaining that they are no longer
> interested in the box in the way that is normally done.

I definitely encourage people to try to contact the planter of a
letterbox that's been abandoned, and Atlas Quest will automatically
attempt to e-mail the planter to let them know the box will be up for
adoption a week or so before it officially ends up in the 'orphanage.'
Unfortunately, it seems that most of the listed e-mail addresses of
planters of seemingly abandoned boxes no longer work, and thus many
planters may never find out about their box going up for adoption. If
you can find additional contact information to let them know about the
status of their boxes, however, I'd definitely encourage people to do so.

As for how adoptions work on AQ--everyone is expected to maintain
their boxes and those that are thought to be abandoned will go up for
adoption. For now, at least, that line is anyone who has not logged
into the site for at least a year will be considered as having abanded
their boxes. It's subject to change if it turns out that criteria is
too long, too short, or not specific enough--but so far it seems to be
working well and I don't have any intention of changing it anytime soon.

As I mentioned before, AQ will attempt to contact the registered owner
a week or so before the boxes go up for adoption, but historically,
most such attempts in failure. (It's definitely worth while to make
sure you keep your e-mail address up-to-date on Atlas Quest!)

As for boxes listed on AQ but the clues are hosted elsewhere--I can't
do much about the remotely hosted clues. If the clue is hosted on
LbNA, I suggest that the person try to adopt the listing on LbNA as
well. Contact an LbNA webmaster to do that, since I don't think
there's any automated method for adopting boxes.

Outside of that, the only option left is to host your own version of
the clue--either on AQ or a website of your choice that you can link
to--and let the old clue wallow in whatever corner of the web it
stands until whever the old clue is swallowed by time and cobwebs.

If a box is listed on both LbNA and AQ but the clue is hosted on AQ,
it's not so critical to adopt the version on LbNA. At least the clue
will stay up to date since you'd be able to access the version on AQ.
Ideally, though, it would be a good idea to adopt the listing from
both sites if possible.

And finally, if the original planter of the box does come back and
wants to reclaim the adopted boxes, they'll be able to do that at any
time. AQ still saves the original planter and authors of the box
(which cannot be changed by someone who adopted the boxes), and
they'll always have the power to transfer ownership of their boxes
back to themselves at any time.

I tried to make it as fair and simple as possible, but the moral of
the story is--don't abandon your boxes! If you decide to quit
letterboxing, find others to take care of your boxes or remove the
ones you planted completely, but it's really bad taste just to leave
abandoned boxes and leaves an awkward situation in its wake that
doesn't have any perfect solutions.

-- Ryan

I still don't understand, however, how not checking into your website in a
year or having changed their email address means that the original owner
"abandoned" a box. Do these boxes where the owner hasn't checked into
atlasquest in a year still have their stamp and logbook? Is the container
still in OK condition?

And if a box is on both LbNA and atlasquest, by deleting it from atlasquest,
how do the boxes become "trash" with "nobody to look for them or maintain
them"? They're still on LbNA for boxers to get the clues and do maintenance
if they wish to.

By suggesting that folks contact the LbNA webmaster to adopt a box that
you've deemed abandoned on atlasquest, it kinda seems to me as if you want
to change a tradition and you're hoping to make LbNA change also.

Your last paragraph just doesn't make sense to me. With your new system,
you don't know that anybody *is* having the "bad taste" to abandon their
box(es). Aren't you deciding that for yourself with no evidence from the
box itself?

Even if a placer is out of letterboxing, whether permanently or temporarily,
someone else could be maintaining that placer's boxes. When Pippi and Keith
left the U.S. for a few years, they left a couple of other local boxers who
volunteered in charge of their boxes until I could get supplies together to
maintain the boxes myself. So if the two of them had not removed the boxes
from atlasquest, the boxes would still be listed even tho they hadn't
checked in to atlasquest and even tho their email addy has changed. Can't
get comcast cable where they're staying now. :-) And the boxes would not
have been abandoned -- I keep the clues up to date and the boxes well
maintained. But you would have decided to call the boxes abandoned. I just
guess I'll never figure that's proper.

I could even understand if you set up some sort of "damaged box report"
where finders could log in to state that they found the box but the stamp
was missing or the logbook missing or the contents strewn all over the
place. And then that finder or other finders checked back in a month or two
and confirmed that the situation hadn't been corrected, thus the box would
be going up for maintenance adoption. In other words, using some sort of
field observation to suppose that a box has likely really truly been
abandoned. That, in my personal opinion, seems a little bit less like
stealing someone else's property.

I could even see doing the adoption bit with newly listed boxes if the first
thing it states when a placer goes to list a box on atlasquest *now* is that
the placer must check in at least once a year or the box will be deemed
abandoned. Then at least a person is warned right upfront. I can't see
changing the requirements for already listed boxes.

But you're the site owner and as such you surely can do what you want -- no
matter who agrees or disagrees with your policy, it's your website.

~~ Mosey ~~
http://freewebs.com/moseyingalong
http://moseyingalong/blogspot.com




-----Original Message-----
From: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of rscarpen
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 2:28 AM
To: letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [LbNA] pH-Cross post


A few comments and clarifications about adopted boxes on Atlas Quest....

> in my own opinion i would rather see the boxes get deleted from
> atlas quest before i saw them go up for adoption.

I did consider this idea, but finally abandoned it because without
clues, any boxes still left out there would essentially become trash
with nobody to look for them or maintain them. If a box has been
abadoned, someone else can take care of it, retire it, or do what they
want, but the one thing I don't want to happen to it is to have it
stay out in the wild and abandoned.

> I am hesitant to adopt a box without speaking to the person whose
> box it is, or at least ascertaining that they are no longer
> interested in the box in the way that is normally done.

I definitely encourage people to try to contact the planter of a
letterbox that's been abandoned, and Atlas Quest will automatically
attempt to e-mail the planter to let them know the box will be up for
adoption a week or so before it officially ends up in the 'orphanage.'
Unfortunately, it seems that most of the listed e-mail addresses of
planters of seemingly abandoned boxes no longer work, and thus many
planters may never find out about their box going up for adoption. If
you can find additional contact information to let them know about the
status of their boxes, however, I'd definitely encourage people to do so.

As for how adoptions work on AQ--everyone is expected to maintain
their boxes and those that are thought to be abandoned will go up for
adoption. For now, at least, that line is anyone who has not logged
into the site for at least a year will be considered as having abanded
their boxes. It's subject to change if it turns out that criteria is
too long, too short, or not specific enough--but so far it seems to be
working well and I don't have any intention of changing it anytime soon.

As I mentioned before, AQ will attempt to contact the registered owner
a week or so before the boxes go up for adoption, but historically,
most such attempts in failure. (It's definitely worth while to make
sure you keep your e-mail address up-to-date on Atlas Quest!)

As for boxes listed on AQ but the clues are hosted elsewhere--I can't
do much about the remotely hosted clues. If the clue is hosted on
LbNA, I suggest that the person try to adopt the listing on LbNA as
well. Contact an LbNA webmaster to do that, since I don't think
there's any automated method for adopting boxes.

Outside of that, the only option left is to host your own version of
the clue--either on AQ or a website of your choice that you can link
to--and let the old clue wallow in whatever corner of the web it
stands until whever the old clue is swallowed by time and cobwebs.

If a box is listed on both LbNA and AQ but the clue is hosted on AQ,
it's not so critical to adopt the version on LbNA. At least the clue
will stay up to date since you'd be able to access the version on AQ.
Ideally, though, it would be a good idea to adopt the listing from
both sites if possible.

And finally, if the original planter of the box does come back and
wants to reclaim the adopted boxes, they'll be able to do that at any
time. AQ still saves the original planter and authors of the box
(which cannot be changed by someone who adopted the boxes), and
they'll always have the power to transfer ownership of their boxes
back to themselves at any time.

I tried to make it as fair and simple as possible, but the moral of
the story is--don't abandon your boxes! If you decide to quit
letterboxing, find others to take care of your boxes or remove the
ones you planted completely, but it's really bad taste just to leave
abandoned boxes and leaves an awkward situation in its wake that
doesn't have any perfect solutions.

-- Ryan









Yahoo! Groups Links

> I still don't understand, however, how not checking into your
> website in a year or having changed their email address means that
> the original owner "abandoned" a box.

If they are not logging into the site, then they are not reading any
reports by finders who might report that maintenance is needed or that
the box may be missing. And I won't sit by and let AQ get clogged with
lots of old, abandoned boxes planted by people it's no longer possible
to contact and who no longer letterbox or maintain their boxes.

Yes, logging in at least once a year may not be a perfect
solution--I'll grant you that--but if you have a better suggestion,
I'd be willing to listen. How can I determine systematically if a
letterbox has been abandoned when I cannot contact the person? That's
the rub.

> Do these boxes where the owner hasn't checked into
> atlasquest in a year still have their stamp and logbook? Is the
> container still in OK condition?

Does it matter? Some boxes that have been abandoned are in perfectly
good shape, and others are not. Eventually, they'll all degrade over
time and if they aren't yet missing a stamp or have a soaked logbook,
eventually they will without someone around to maintain them.

> And if a box is on both LbNA and atlasquest, by deleting it from
> atlasquest, how do the boxes become "trash" with "nobody to look for
> them or maintain them"?

Not all boxes on Atlas Quest are also listed on LbNA, and AQ does not
have a systematic way of determining how often people log into LbNA
or--even it did it--which accounts on LbNA can be linked to the same
person on AQ.

> By suggesting that folks contact the LbNA webmaster to adopt a box
> that you've deemed abandoned on atlasquest, it kinda seems to me as
> if you want to change a tradition and you're hoping to make LbNA
> change also.

To be perfectly honest, it's in Atlas Quest's best interest for LbNA
*not* to remove and purge old, abandoned letterboxes. It clutters the
results with a lot of missing and damaged letterboxes and if Atlas
Quest can provide a better set of clues that people can be certain are
more up-to-date and maintained than LbNA, more people will start using AQ.

If you think trying to get people to take responsibility for their
letterboxers or give them to someone who will maintain them is a bad
thing, well, you are entitled to your opinion. And that's okay, I
don't mind. I can't make everyone happy, so I don't really try.
Instead, I try to do what I think is right and best for everyone
involved (which does include people *looking* for boxes as well as the
people who planted boxes).

> Your last paragraph just doesn't make sense to me. With your new
> system, you don't know that anybody *is* having the "bad taste" to
> abandon their box(es). Aren't you deciding that for yourself with
> no evidence from the box itself?

There is evidence--they've stopped using the website for an entire
year and they've stopped maintaining information to contact them or
ignored warning that their boxes will be put up for adoption. It's
circumstancial evidence, to be sure, but if it walks like a duck and
quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck.

> Even if a placer is out of letterboxing, whether permanently or
> temporarily, someone else could be maintaining that placer's boxes.

That's fine--then the planter should transfer ownership of the
letterbox to the person who is maintaining it. How can someone
maintain a clue if they can't log in and change it? How can a
maintainer get reports of damage or problems if they aren't the
registered owner of the box.

I think you're confusing what exactly an 'owner' of a letterbox means
on AQ. That's the person who maintains the letterbox and keeps it
going. If someone plants a letterbox far from home, they'll still be
listed as the planter and the author--they'll ALWAYS be listed as the
planter and author and ALWAYS be able to access their boxes regardless
of how long its been since they last logged in. The "owner" is just
the day-to-day maintainer of the letterbox. I suppose I could have
called it a "maintainer" rather than "owner", but "maintainer" is such
an awkward word. But a maintainer also needs all the same access to
the box's listing as the person who originally listed it, so they
essentially become a co-owner of the box. It allows people to maintain
another person's letterbox without the original owner having to give
up any rights to their own letterbox.

> And the boxes would not have been abandoned -- I keep the clues up
> to date and the boxes well maintained.

How can you keep the clues up to date if you can't access the box listing?

> That, in my personal opinion, seems a little bit less like
> stealing someone else's property.

And please don't forget--the person who planted the letterbox--they
will *always* have full access to the clue and the right to take back
any boxes that have been adopted by someone else. Ultimately, the
person who planted the letterbox trumps all else on Atlas Quest--even
after the box has been adopted by someone else.

Most of your complaints, I fear, are more a result of not fully
understanding how the system works on Atlas Quest rather than

> I could even see doing the adoption bit with newly listed boxes if
> the first thing it states when a placer goes to list a box on
> atlasquest *now* is that the placer must check in at least once a
> year or the box will be deemed abandoned. Then at least a person is
> warned right upfront.

People are warned upfront--before they're even allowed to create an
account on Atlas Quest, they must accept the terms of service which
include:

1. You agree to maintain a valid contact e-mail address, associated
either with your clues, account, or website where your clues are hosted.

2. You accept that the webmasters may remove or assign your clues to a
"caretaker"

I don't explicitly state when that might happen since I don't want to
update the TOS every time there's any tiny modification in the
criteria, but I make no secret of how it's determined.

And, based on the feedback I've gotten, most people are pretty happy
with the policy.

> But you're the site owner and as such you surely can do what you
> want -- no matter who agrees or disagrees with your policy, it's
> your website.

That's true to a certain degree, but it matters very much to me what
others think about the various features and policies on AQ. There are
some features I put in then later pulled back out after a lot of
protest. There are some features where a couple of people might
protest loudly but most people are supportive of, and I'll leave those
in place.

I might be the site owner, but the website isn't just for me and I
know that. There are a lot of features on the site I personally don't
like, but I put them there for others who do. There are a lot of
features I'd like to include but don't because most people don't seem
to want it.

So I don't think it's really fair to suggest that I don't care about
what others think, because that's not true.

-- Ryan

ahhhh i got it now! after reading the responses and ryans answers i now
understand what is meant by adoption on atlas quest, and feeling quite dumb
i might add. if i had really thought about it i would have understood just
what the "owner" thing was referring to.

maybe the confusion comes from the term adoption.

the first definition of adoption means "to take by choice into a
relationship; especially : to take voluntarily (a child of other parents) as
one's own child".

the first definition of foster means "affording, receiving, or sharing
nurture or parental care though not related by blood or legal ties".

now what you are describing how atlas quest works in my feeble brain it is a
foster care system. much different than an adoption.

being involved in adoption and fostering of real children i was confused by
the whole proccess. ryan's explanation works for me.

lbna works for me, atlas quest works for me, all in all both are great sites
and i thank both sites for the work that they do and for trying their best
to prevent abandoned boxes from becoming litter.

smile
uneksia

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]